Discussion:
Finding the newsgroup link of a Google group
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a***@gmail.com
2006-08-22 20:22:00 UTC
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Is there a newsgroup link (e.g. news://...) for every Google Group?

Regards,

Frank
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Mike Easter
2006-08-23 00:42:37 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Is there a newsgroup link (e.g. news://...) for every Google Group?
Quick answer -- No, hardly any -- closer to none.

Slow answer: Where 'Google Group' = ?what exactly? in this context?

GG's help sez google groups is mailing list and browser accessible
groups provided by google and that googlegroups [archive] provides
access to many usenet newsgroups as an archive browser accessible and
browser postable. Are usenet ng/s which are accessible on googlegroups
a 'googlegroup'? Not by my definition here.

You cannot email post to /usenet/ groups via google as/but you can to
google groups, but you can browser post to either google [only and
created] groups as well as those usenet groups which are 'listed' and
archived by googlegroups. There are also newsgroups which emanate from
public/private newsservers which get propagated to nntp 'usenet'
newsservers and also google, such as the microsoft publics.

So, if that distinction of groups found on google groups is understood,
you have a grasp of GG vs usenet groups vs not exactly usenet but
similarly propagated. Google sez this about usenet and some other
things: http://groups.google.com/support/bin/static.py?page=basics.html
"Google has expanded accessibility to the Usenet database through
deployment of improved search and browsing tools and integration of the
full archive with more recent postings. The combined database of more
than 650 million messages already constitutes the largest collection of
Usenet data on the Web and is growing at a rapid pace."

Under that distinction [usenet vs GG], hardly any 'googlegroups' [per
se] are found on 'usenet' nntp newsservers. But there are a few on a
few nntp newsservers which serve the general usenet which also propagate
googlegroups per se. My defined se.

For example, I know a newsserver which carries
google.public.support.general.
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Mike Easter


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Paul Schmitz-Josten
2006-08-22 21:07:44 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Is there a newsgroup link (e.g. news://...) for every
Google Group?

No. Opposite to that, _no_ google group has a newsgroup link.

Mind you:
There are genuine newsgroups which have a newsgroup link
(provided you have access to a genuine newsgroup server) -
they are only copied and archived by Google which gives
people like you an auxiliary access.
news:news.newusers.questions is one of them.

Then there are genuine Google groups which only exist on
Google's website
- they are no newsgroups and therefore they certainly do not
have a newsgroup link. There is no access to these groups
from a newsgroup server.

Confusing regards,

Paul
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Whiskers
2006-08-22 22:19:08 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Is there a newsgroup link (e.g. news://...) for every
Google Group?
Post by a***@gmail.com
Regards,
Frank
Not for the proprietary web-forums that Google has mixed up
with the real newsgroups they give access to via their
'Google Groups' interface. For those, an http:// URL is
required. News URLs are only possible for real newsgroups.

The accepted formats for a news URL are of this form to
direct a newsreader program to a particular article:

<news:***@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

or like this, to direct a newsreader program to a particular
newsgroup:

<news:news.newusers.questions>

Notice the absence of any //

News URLs only work if the end user has a news-reader and an
account with a news-server set up on their system, and only
if that server carries the group or article concerned.

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Dr.Ruud
2006-08-23 13:01:41 UTC
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Post by Whiskers
News URLs only work if the end user has a news-reader and an
account with a news-server set up on their system, and only
if that server carries the group or article concerned.
Or an agent that just translates the above to

<http://googlegroups.com/groups?
selm=***@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

If you then click on the Subject-link (just above the message) you get
the thread-view.
--
Affijn, Ruud

"Gewoon is een tijger."
Mike Easter
2006-08-23 13:52:40 UTC
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Post by Dr.Ruud
Post by Whiskers
News URLs
... where Whiskers defined a 'news url' earlier in his post as one
beginning with 'news:'
Post by Dr.Ruud
Post by Whiskers
only work if the end user has a news-reader and an
account with a news-server set up on their system, and only
if that server carries the group or article concerned.
Or an agent that just translates the above to
... where Dr.Ruud's 'agent' converted the mid found in the news link
into a http link comprised of the 'apparatus' for accessing the message
by mid in the GG archive.

The agent would make http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Message-ID
Post by Dr.Ruud
<http://googlegroups.com/groups?
Unfortunately, my agent wraps that link at the '?' so that it doesn't
work, but if I copy it and unwrap it and paste it into a browser's
address it accesses the message at GG.

And, altho' I don't have such an 'agent', I have humanly scraped/copied
the mid out of a news link and taken it to the advanced GG tool at
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en and plugged it into the
"Lookup the message with message ID" - Lookup Message - function which
converts the mid gg link into a 'google identifier' link

http://groups.google.com/group/news.newusers.questions/msg/a1588c9bb0aed110?hl=en

... where my term 'google identifier' refers to the portion of the
google link 'a1588c9bb0aed110' -- which I have never been able to
identify/find in the GG headers. GG headers don't contain a 'XRef' line
like a nntp newsagent, so if the GG db has the equivalent of a Xref that
it uses to access a message [after using the mid to access the
googleidentifier], it doesn't display that google identifier except in
groups.google.com link as I've displayed above.
--
Mike Easter


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Whiskers
2006-08-23 14:25:42 UTC
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snip
Post by Mike Easter
And, altho' I don't have such an 'agent', I have humanly scraped/copied
the mid out of a news link and taken it to the advanced GG tool at
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en and plugged it into the
"Lookup the message with message ID" - Lookup Message - function which
converts the mid gg link into a 'google identifier' link
snip

That's how I generally find articles that aren't in my local spool. There
are scripts for slrn that can automate the procedure, and I think that
Xnews can do it 'out of the box'. <http://howardk.freenix.org/> provides
an alternative to going directly to Google.

I don't know of any email clients that can do it, although scriptable
clients such as the mutt could probably be persuaded to.

I don't know of any web browser that can do it automatically - mainly
because I've never felt the need.
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Mike Easter
2006-08-23 17:43:01 UTC
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Post by Mike Easter
Mike Easter
and plugged it into the "Lookup the message with message ID" -
Lookup Message - function which converts the mid gg link into a
'google identifier' link
That's how I generally find articles that aren't in my local spool.
Do you know anything about that 'google identifier' that I was talking
about?

It seems that I recall there used to be some kind of gizmo, back in the
deja vu days, which would convert an mid into 'something else' that was
useful for deja -- but I don't remember what the something else was or
what it looked like.

I'm wondering if there was a deja 'thing' that google has enhanced or
expanded upon. I tried some searching for the old online tool, but I
couldn't remember any useful terms.
--
Mike Easter


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Whiskers
2006-08-23 19:25:54 UTC
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Post by Mike Easter
Post by Mike Easter
Mike Easter
and plugged it into the "Lookup the message with message ID" -
Lookup Message - function which converts the mid gg link into a
'google identifier' link
That's how I generally find articles that aren't in my local spool.
Do you know anything about that 'google identifier' that I was talking
about?
It seems that I recall there used to be some kind of gizmo, back in the
deja vu days, which would convert an mid into 'something else' that was
useful for deja -- but I don't remember what the something else was or
what it looked like.
I'm wondering if there was a deja 'thing' that google has enhanced or
expanded upon. I tried some searching for the old online tool, but I
couldn't remember any useful terms.
Here's a related thread that might interest you
<http://groups.google.com/group/news.software.readers/browse_thread/thread/
ed33ebf9f2c19e9/9183db3517241d7c?hide_quotes=no#msg_9183db3517241d7c> or
<http://qurl.net/HG>.

A URL of the form
<http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=<MID>> takes you directly to
that article in Google's archive (without the <> around the MID).
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Mike Easter
2006-08-23 22:16:08 UTC
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Post by Mike Easter
Mike Easter
Post by Mike Easter
Do you know anything about that 'google identifier' that I was
talking about?
Maybe that should be called 'google archiver group message number'
hereafter 'gagmn'
Post by Mike Easter
Post by Mike Easter
I'm wondering if there was a deja 'thing' that google has enhanced or
expanded upon.
Here's a related thread that might interest you
Well, all of that is still all about the messageid as the access to the
'general' googlegroups particular article.

This 'gagmn' number looks like a 16 digit hexadecimal number and it
doesn't access via the 'general' googlegroups the way the mid accesses.
It acts much more like a XRef number, because in order to use it, google
groups has to define the particular group first, then msg/ and then the
gagmn number.

This is the format/syntax of a gagmn number usage:

http://groups.google.com/group/news.newusers.questions/msg/a1588c9bb0aed110?hl=en

which you can see needs group/newsgroup.name/msg/gagmn

whereas when we use the msgid we don't do it that way. <Same message
below>

http://googlegroups.com/groups?selm=***@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com
<make oneline>

which you can see needs groups?selm=msgid

which is a completely different referencing system.

Just like the newslink with a message id doesn't need 'anything else' --
if you were trying to access a particular news item from its Xref
number, you would need to know the news server and the newsgroup -- if
you are trying to access a particular googlegroups newsitem with the
gagmn number, you would also need to know the particular newsgroup which
would precede /msg/gagmn
--
Mike Easter


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Mike Easter
2006-08-23 22:27:18 UTC
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Post by Mike Easter
which you can see needs group/newsgroup.name/msg/gagmn
whereas when we use the msgid we don't do it that way. <Same message
below>
which you can see needs groups?selm=msgid
which is a completely different referencing system.
Or, said another way, when we feed the google advanced search tool the
mid to fetch the message, it doesn't use the format with the msgid,
instead it uses the format with the gagmn.

That is, the browser addressline will be holding the gagmn link, not a
GG mid link.
--
Mike Easter


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Whiskers
2006-08-24 01:01:43 UTC
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Post by Mike Easter
Post by Mike Easter
Mike Easter
Post by Mike Easter
Do you know anything about that 'google identifier' that I was
talking about?
Maybe that should be called 'google archiver group message number'
hereafter 'gagmn'
Post by Mike Easter
Post by Mike Easter
I'm wondering if there was a deja 'thing' that google has enhanced or
expanded upon.
Here's a related thread that might interest you
Well, all of that is still all about the messageid as the access to the
'general' googlegroups particular article.
This 'gagmn' number looks like a 16 digit hexadecimal number and it
doesn't access via the 'general' googlegroups the way the mid accesses.
It acts much more like a XRef number, because in order to use it, google
groups has to define the particular group first, then msg/ and then the
gagmn number.
http://groups.google.com/group/news.newusers.questions/msg/a1588c9bb0aed110?hl=en
which you can see needs group/newsgroup.name/msg/gagmn
whereas when we use the msgid we don't do it that way. <Same message
below>
<make oneline>
which you can see needs groups?selm=msgid
which is a completely different referencing system.
So? We can use the latter if we we don't know the unique-to-Google
reference number - and when we do, the address bar of the browser will
show
<http://groups.google.com/group/news.newusers.questions/msg/a1588c9bb0aed110>
and not the URL we sent to Google.

Also try
<http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=***@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
which will be returned with
<http://groups.google.com/group/news.newusers.questions/msg/a1588c9bb0aed11
0?as_umsgid=***@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> in
the address bar - again not what we sent, and apparently constructed by a
different process within Google's system - but showing us the same
article.
Post by Mike Easter
Just like the newslink with a message id doesn't need 'anything else' --
if you were trying to access a particular news item from its Xref
number, you would need to know the news server and the newsgroup -- if
you are trying to access a particular googlegroups newsitem with the
gagmn number, you would also need to know the particular newsgroup which
would precede /msg/gagmn
It doesn't seem to matter what processing Google do when fed such a URL, as
long as it takes one to the desired article. A script can be devised that
will take manual input of a MID or find it in an article, and build a URL
using that MID; one does not need to know the local article number of that
article in Google's database - Google take care of finding that,
presumably from an index of MIDs. Much as a news: URL finds the article
on a conventional NNTP server. We don't need to know how the server finds
it, just that it does.

<http://googlegroups.com/groups?selm=[insert MID here]> works, as does
<http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=[insert MID here]> - either
will take you to the same article, in Google's 'parsed' rendering, and
from which one can navigate to the archive of the whole thread or whole
group. The user is not required to know or care about Google's internal
workings, as long as the URL used has the desired result.
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a***@gmail.com
2006-08-23 18:35:56 UTC
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Thanks for everybody help! Things are much clear now!

Regards,

Frank
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